Slower growing varieties?

Schoenie said:
I totally agree with you: Good quality, healthy cuttings make all the difference!

I was not kidding when in the past I mentioned that in my hands, and using my rooting protocol, all cutting
I've received from Phil @FigGazer have consistently outperformed any cuttings from any other source. The same
goes for cuttings from my local SF Bay Area friends Mark and Dan.
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Are all of @Fig Gazer 's trees in ground?
 
I separate the first-year performance from cuttings with post years performance from grown up trees.

I think the first-year performance is related to the conditions of the cuttings or how much reserves/hormones the cuttings have at the starting points. That is probably related to the growing conditions of the trees or harvest. It is not easy to find out the details before the cuttings arrive at your door. It is almost like a lottery sometimes. You won't know until you start rooting those cuttings.

e.g. I got some average to below average looking cuttings from one person. I started rooting them right away and they turned out to be all good despite some obvious frost damage causing rots, which was fixable. On the other hand, I got some nice looking cuttings from another grower in a frost-free area and got the opposite results. I thought a lack of dormancy or growing conditions may have something to do with it even though I was rooting easy to root varieties that I have rooted multiple times successfully in the past.

One time, I asked a friend to send me a second batch of cuttings after some of the first batch failed. The 2nd batch was 100% rooted while I saw problems from the first batch right from start. So, I asked the friend what the difference was. The second batch was stored deep inside the shed in pots while the first batch was from the inground trees. I remember that very well which counters to what people suggested in ground trees have better cuttings than the ones in pots.

Once the cuttings are fully rooted, I don't see a lot of difference in varieties growth in grown up trees except a few like the BMs. Whenever I see a tree not doing well in my yard, it is typically caused by either i) I didn't water enough ii) I forgot to fertilize iii) it didn't get much sun. I understand some growers automate water and fertilization which frees up a lot of time especially when one has many trees. But I found trees' needs are not uniform, not by variety, not by time. e.g. a water hog is NOT a water hog for the whole season. But if you didn't give it enough water when it needs water, don't expect it to be productive for you later in the season.

A "slow" grower is also not slow throughout the season. I went to check my HdA, 5-6 ft tall from the first season. I cut it down to 2 and it grew back to 5-6 the following season. It didn't grow much last season because I did a root prune and put it in ground. I have grown HdA for about 10 years and had started it 3 times at least from cuttings from multiple sources after my moves. It was always an average grower, not too big like the De la Roca or Black Manzanita, not too small like the Figo Preto.
 
Schoenie said:

"The term to describe the phenomenon where cuttings from a vertical branch (upright) or a horizontal branch (lateral) continue to exhibit their original growth habit is topophysis. Cuttings from upright shoots usually grow vertically, while those from horizontal branches maintain a horizontal or "prostrate" habit."
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Very interesting, I wonder if this also accounts for how people describe growth habits for different varieties. If topophysis holds true for figs, I am wondering if horizontal cuttings would grow shorter trees with more naturally open centers. I’ll throw it on the list of experiments pile.
 
IAK said:
Very interesting, I wonder if this also accounts for how people describe growth habits for different varieties. If topophysis holds true for figs, I am wondering if horizontal cuttings would grow shorter trees with more naturally open centers. I’ll throw it on the list of experiments pile.
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Some species are more sensitive to it than others and similarly, I can imagine that some varieties are more sensitive to it than others.

I have a BM that grows slow, stays low, likes to branch out, and has very short inter-node distances, while I also have one that wants to go up, grows at least twice as fast, doesn't make a lot of side shoots, and has inter-node distances that are at least 4-5 times bigger. They're grown next to each other, in the same size 10 gal container, and enjoy the exact same fertilizer regimen.
 
PapaFig said:
I think we've had better luck with cuttings from inground trees (like Harvey and Big Bill), but I don't have data - I could probably extract it from our spreadsheets, but it's not a random sample either, so... just a guess.

We have also had some root easily (e.g. HdA, Zaffiro, etc.) that are reported by others to be hard to root, and I'd attribute that to cutting quality/freshness (and maybe some luck).

The worst seem to be the FMV riddled WS-sourced varieties like Ischia Black.

I know this is one of the those "controversial" topics, LOL... but I can respect that others have a different experience/opinions. Until someone does the work to produces some actual data - we are all basically guessing.
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Mine are all in ground
 
RosyPosy said:
I feel like there could be a huge lesson in here with the information. Definitely think certain practices or ways of growing have a bearing, and if we could get it all together, we might learn some important factors. But it seems hard to get conclusive information, that’s also because nature is involved and some of it is invisible to us.

For the experiments I’m doing on my blog, I noticed cuttings from certain sources rooted right away and other sources did not, even with the same variety being involved across them. Of course I’m asking, what’s the difference? I even emailed the sellers to see if anything obvious stood out, but I didn’t get many responses back, haha. I think even at what state of dormancy the cutting was taken at probably was a factor, since there are chemical changes in dormant trees.

Or, for slow growing varieties, is there a particular nutrient profile that they need?

I’m sure to an extent, the information is out there, it’s just getting it together in an accurate way. Sometimes what people think is helping or not helping is not actually so, and everything is just guesses or opinions in many ways.

I don’t fault trying to put a list together though! It can help in certain ways.
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This information would be very helpful and interesting to review, ive been wondering if soil is lacking nutirients in parts of the yard.
 
betdempster said:
My cddb barely grew at all and I had it since June or July. And my hda grew but also not much compared to others. But the weird thing is I have a Brunswick/ magnolia that's
Not grown at all. Even though it looks incredibly healthy. But if you want another condition that might be a factor mike Kincaid had a video where he had stalled plants and put them in a bigger pot and it took off.
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Mine are in ground and have been over a year each, i have seen that behaviour before with another variety that, i had potted start to get root rot so i planted in ground in desperation, it was dormant for nearly a year and then started growing normally again.
 
grasshopper said:
I separate the first-year performance from cuttings with post years performance from grown up trees.

I think the first-year performance is related to the conditions of the cuttings or how much reserves/hormones the cuttings have at the starting points. That is probably related to the growing conditions of the trees or harvest. It is not easy to find out the details before the cuttings arrive at your door. It is almost like a lottery sometimes. You won't know until you start rooting those cuttings.

e.g. I got some average to below average looking cuttings from one person. I started rooting them right away and they turned out to be all good despite some obvious frost damage causing rots, which was fixable. On the other hand, I got some nice looking cuttings from another grower in a frost-free area and got the opposite results. I thought a lack of dormancy or growing conditions may have something to do with it even though I was rooting easy to root varieties that I have rooted multiple times successfully in the past.

One time, I asked a friend to send me a second batch of cuttings after some of the first batch failed. The 2nd batch was 100% rooted while I saw problems from the first batch right from start. So, I asked the friend what the difference was. The second batch was stored deep inside the shed in pots while the first batch was from the inground trees. I remember that very well which counters to what people suggested in ground trees have better cuttings than the ones in pots.

Once the cuttings are fully rooted, I don't see a lot of difference in varieties growth in grown up trees except a few like the BMs. Whenever I see a tree not doing well in my yard, it is typically caused by either i) I didn't water enough ii) I forgot to fertilize iii) it didn't get much sun. I understand some growers automate water and fertilization which frees up a lot of time especially when one has many trees. But I found trees' needs are not uniform, not by variety, not by time. e.g. a water hog is NOT a water hog for the whole season. But if you didn't give it enough water when it needs water, don't expect it to be productive for you later in the season.

A "slow" grower is also not slow throughout the season. I went to check my HdA, 5-6 ft tall from the first season. I cut it down to 2 and it grew back to 5-6 the following season. It didn't grow much last season because I did a root prune and put it in ground. I have grown HdA for about 10 years and had started it 3 times at least from cuttings from multiple sources after my moves. It was always an average grower, not too big like the De la Roca or Black Manzanita, not too small like the Figo Preto.
Click to expand...
These are 2nd year and in ground
grasshopper said:
I separate the first-year performance from cuttings with post years performance from grown up trees.

I think the first-year performance is related to the conditions of the cuttings or how much reserves/hormones the cuttings have at the starting points. That is probably related to the growing conditions of the trees or harvest. It is not easy to find out the details before the cuttings arrive at your door. It is almost like a lottery sometimes. You won't know until you start rooting those cuttings.

e.g. I got some average to below average looking cuttings from one person. I started rooting them right away and they turned out to be all good despite some obvious frost damage causing rots, which was fixable. On the other hand, I got some nice looking cuttings from another grower in a frost-free area and got the opposite results. I thought a lack of dormancy or growing conditions may have something to do with it even though I was rooting easy to root varieties that I have rooted multiple times successfully in the past.

One time, I asked a friend to send me a second batch of cuttings after some of the first batch failed. The 2nd batch was 100% rooted while I saw problems from the first batch right from start. So, I asked the friend what the difference was. The second batch was stored deep inside the shed in pots while the first batch was from the inground trees. I remember that very well which counters to what people suggested in ground trees have better cuttings than the ones in pots.

Once the cuttings are fully rooted, I don't see a lot of difference in varieties growth in grown up trees except a few like the BMs. Whenever I see a tree not doing well in my yard, it is typically caused by either i) I didn't water enough ii) I forgot to fertilize iii) it didn't get much sun. I understand some growers automate water and fertilization which frees up a lot of time especially when one has many trees. But I found trees' needs are not uniform, not by variety, not by time. e.g. a water hog is NOT a water hog for the whole season. But if you didn't give it enough water when it needs water, don't expect it to be productive for you later in the season.

A "slow" grower is also not slow throughout the season. I went to check my HdA, 5-6 ft tall from the first season. I cut it down to 2 and it grew back to 5-6 the following season. It didn't grow much last season because I did a root prune and put it in ground. I have grown HdA for about 10 years and had started it 3 times at least from cuttings from multiple sources after my moves. It was always an average grower, not too big like the De la Roca or Black Manzanita, not too small like the Figo Preto.
Click to expand...
2nd year trees and in ground
 
GilaMonster said:
This information would be very helpful and interesting to review, ive been wondering if soil is lacking nutirients in parts of the yard.
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Some say most soils contain all of the necessary nutrients but other factors can affect their availability. Like having too much of one nutrient can block out other nutrients. Or also not having enough microbial life can limit nutrient availability, since it is the microbes making the minerals available to the plant roots.

Trees are also more fungal dependent, whereas vegetables need more bacteria. So sometimes people apply what they do for their veggies to trees, but it doesn’t always help in the way they need.

pH and Eh also affect nutrient availability, the type of water we have, etc. Many variables can be involved. But the most basic place to start is with a soil test, that can let you know if anything is not there that should be.

Also, the characteristics of your soil can give a clue too. For example, if you have a lot of weeds or a certain type of weed, that shows you either have bacterial dominant soil or poor microbial life and the type of weed, if a lot of one type, can tell you what minerals are lacking.

Tight, compacted soil has too much magnesium and that will block out important nutrients, such as calcium and others. Calcium will loosen the soil which is good.

Sandy soil doesn’t hold on to nutrients very well and benefits from organic matter.

Sorry, I’m geeking out on it here, but I find soil kind of interesting. 😆
 
I’ve gotten some cuttings from some well known folks on FigBid that are taking forever to root. Cuvert is one on that list, I’ve got 2 cuttings going and they both still are just chilling with no leaves yet. Castagnat is same way, that seems slow also.
 
GilaMonster said:
Mine are in ground and have been over a year each, i have seen that behaviour before with another variety that, i had potted start to get root rot so i planted in ground in desperation, it was dormant for nearly a year and then started growing normally again.
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I was reading the posts through a phone so didn't see some of your posts.

Did your slow varieties start with root rot in pots and then later didn't resume normal growth after putting them in ground?

Or those were slow from the moment you put them in ground?

Root rot typically caused by lack of drainage and/or air in the soil. That can happen in a pot or in ground.
 
Figjake said:
I’ve gotten some cuttings from some well known folks on FigBid that are taking forever to root. Cuvert is one on that list, I’ve got 2 cuttings going and they both still are just chilling with no leaves yet. Castagnat is same way, that seems slow also.
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Of over 100 cuttings i did this year cuvert didnt make it and castagnat hasnt done anything but is alive 😂🤷‍♂️ same ones.
 
Kompakfigs said:
400 pots. 😲. I just can’t imagine how anyone can manage to take care of so many trees.
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I bet it’s much easier in ground than in the pots. Less watering to deal with and less fertilizer. I have plans to put all mine in ground, but that’s going to be a bit before that happens. Need some land and some high tunnels and each would have to have some sort of raised bed since the ground here is red clay and holds way too much water. FigTreesUSA does this well with 55 gallon barrels cut in half since his water table is so high,
 
Figjake said:
I bet it’s much easier in ground than in the pots. Less watering to deal with and less fertilizer. I have plans to put all mine in ground, but that’s going to be a bit before that happens. Need some land and some high tunnels and each would have to have some sort of raised bed since the ground here is red clay and holds way too much water. FigTreesUSA does this well with 55 gallon barrels cut in half since his water table is so high,
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Same for me but it’ll be duplicates.
 
IAK said:
While this may be true, to actually prove it you would have to:

1. Take your own cuttings and mark them horizontal/vertical as you cut them.
2. Decide what is “horizontal”? Does a 45 deg angle mean vertical or horizontal? What about a cutting that has curve upwards?
3. Root and grow out 100 cuttings of horizontal and 100 vertical cuttings from the same exact tree before you can make that determination.
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On point #3, from memory 19 will give you a pretty good t-score but 37 or more is plenty for a z-score with some power.

I would probably do about 50 each. 200 is a lot to root of one variety and if the difference in success is so small you need that power to discern it, then probably isn't an important enough factor to worry about.

These are exactly the types of thing we should be doing and sharing data as a group. IMO.
 
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Jack and I have enough unks from our ingrounds to try a few treatments. I am thinking probably rooting media, coarse sand vs coco-coir+perlite vs ???

Open to suggestions.
 
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