PapaFig
Well-known member
Yes.
And the collection became heavily infected with FMV (and probably other pests/disease) - a common issue with mono-culture. I think Monsserat Pons is or was under a quarantine due to a bark beetle pest.
Slower growing varieties?
- Thread starter GilaMonster
- Start date
And the collection became heavily infected with FMV (and probably other pests/disease) - a common issue with mono-culture. I think Monsserat Pons is or was under a quarantine due to a bark beetle pest.
PapaFig
Well-known member
"Role of Auxins on Rooting of Different Types of Cuttings in Fig"
GoodFriendMike
Moderator
Yes sir.
You are correct, I was just throwing a number out because not all cuttings will root and some may not survive or stall after multiple up pots. It would be nice to end up with 37 relevant examples from each group.
PapaFig
Well-known member
Jack and I did coco-coir head to head with DE on 128 cuttings (1 cutting each of 64 varieties), matched pairs one each from adjacent cuttings from the same branch - all cuttings from Harvey. Success was, I think 62/64 coco coir, 59/64 DE w/the DE also being 1-2 weeks slower to show roots (harder to penetrate?). Since both were over 90% I concluded they are both effective media.
Let me see if I can find a link... no dice. I'll make a post on our website and link it with the details when I have time.
It's been hard to achieve that level of success consistently - these were from 64 cuttings we ordered from Harvey that we cut in half and struck 1/2 each in coco-coir + perlite and the other cutting (1/2 a cutting, but they all had 3 nodes at least) we struck in straight DE (Optisorb). That means of 64 cuttings ordered (64 different varieties) we got a total of 121 trees that survived up potting.
These results argue directly against my initial premise, and echo the sentiment of some who say basically it isn't the variety, but the quality of the cutting that is mostly at play. I should be able to go back to an older spreadsheet and see if that class of 64 included any of the "difficult to root" varieties and if those were among the ones to fail.
It's also possible that the underlying health and quality of the cuttings and optimal conditions allowed even less vigorous/viable cuttings to eventually succeed in this case - while they (the "hard to root" ones) might regularly fail in classes/conditions that are sub-optimal.
Let me see if I can find a link... no dice. I'll make a post on our website and link it with the details when I have time.
It's been hard to achieve that level of success consistently - these were from 64 cuttings we ordered from Harvey that we cut in half and struck 1/2 each in coco-coir + perlite and the other cutting (1/2 a cutting, but they all had 3 nodes at least) we struck in straight DE (Optisorb). That means of 64 cuttings ordered (64 different varieties) we got a total of 121 trees that survived up potting.
These results argue directly against my initial premise, and echo the sentiment of some who say basically it isn't the variety, but the quality of the cutting that is mostly at play. I should be able to go back to an older spreadsheet and see if that class of 64 included any of the "difficult to root" varieties and if those were among the ones to fail.
It's also possible that the underlying health and quality of the cuttings and optimal conditions allowed even less vigorous/viable cuttings to eventually succeed in this case - while they (the "hard to root" ones) might regularly fail in classes/conditions that are sub-optimal.
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GilaMonster
Well-known member
Interesting, the roots were quite healthy when i planted. I thought i had dug a good hole and filled with good soil and perlite when i planted. I usually have to dig a larger area because of the clay in my yard.
Conversley, my lsu hollier was suffering from root rot in a pot so i planted it in ground as a hail mary, it bounced back after a year.
GilaMonster
Well-known member
Early 2024, jan or february. I have bushes several feet away on either side. I havent done a ph test but i could, i have the supplies from a previous garden project.
Could the ph be impacting?
GilaMonster
Well-known member
I Think this is interesting because i dont know anything abiut it si feel free to continueSome say most soils contain all of the necessary nutrients but other factors can affect their availability. Like having too much of one nutrient can block out other nutrients. Or also not having enough microbial life can limit nutrient availability, since it is the microbes making the minerals available to the plant roots.
Trees are also more fungal dependent, whereas vegetables need more bacteria. So sometimes people apply what they do for their veggies to trees, but it doesn’t always help in the way they need.
pH and Eh also affect nutrient availability, the type of water we have, etc. Many variables can be involved. But the most basic place to start is with a soil test, that can let you know if anything is not there that should be.
Also, the characteristics of your soil can give a clue too. For example, if you have a lot of weeds or a certain type of weed, that shows you either have bacterial dominant soil or poor microbial life and the type of weed, if a lot of one type, can tell you what minerals are lacking.
Tight, compacted soil has too much magnesium and that will block out important nutrients, such as calcium and others. Calcium will loosen the soil which is good.
Sandy soil doesn’t hold on to nutrients very well and benefits from organic matter.
Sorry, I’m geeking out on it here, but I find soil kind of interesting.
the soil reading grows grass, parsley, clover. Cheeseweed, and willow tree seedlings, it is a clay soil, but where i plant i dig it out and replace with garden soil, perrlite, cococoir, before planting a tree, then i top with a mulch to retain mositure. I have been able to grow all my trees as well as root veggies and peas in this way. I also fertilize once a year.
grasshopper
Well-known member
I have sticky clay soil as well as do most people in my area. Usually, I add in compost and pine bark fines to improve drainage. We have short rainy season and some of my trees are right next to the rain drain. I found as long as water drains well after the rain, it really doesn't matter how much water the trees were given. Your area doesn't have a lot of rain if I understand correctly so I suspect it may have to do with insufficient air in the soil around it. Perlite has a tendency to float up after watering. When it does, the drainage/air pockets underneath reduce, which is what really matters to the roots. I typically amend native soil instead of adding different soil to the tree site. It is just a habit I have from long ago, which supposedly help the roots to extend/adapt better to the native soil.
I use SIP pots about half of the time, which means the roots literally sit in water most of the time, regardless of varieties. No root rot there after doing that for hundreds of times, unless I let the roots sit in water in winter when the plants are dormant.
What kind of potting mix did you use when root rot happened in pots?
grasshopper
Well-known member
If you haven't planted fruit trees in that area, it is a good idea to do a soil test because the requirements for a fruiting tree are quite different than grass or ornamentals.
High water pH affects the soil pH over the long run especially in area with limited rain. High pH soil affects the mineral availability such as phosphorus , calcium, iron, copper, manganese etc and impacts the growth of plants.
Putting trees in ground has more things to pay attention to than putting trees in pots because most potting mix are pH adjusted, some even come with fertilizer but ground soil is an unknown, unique to your environment.
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RosyPosy
Well-known member
The amount of air definitely affects how fast a plant grows, more air equals faster growth, though too much air can bring other problems. So if you have clay soil, that could explain some of the issue for slower growth.I Think this is interesting because i dont know anything abiut it si feel free to continue
Keep in mind, trees aren’t veggies, so they need some differences to maintain their roots longterm. I think the below may help.
One thing about clay soil:
I had watched a lecture from Gary Matsuoka on soil. He stated that if you have a plant growing in compost and you put it into clay soil, it just rots. This is because clay doesn’t breathe well and the compost uses up that little amount of air and there is nothing left for the plant roots. (This would apply to other types of organic matter such as bark around the roots as well.) So if you put compost or bark in the root zone in clay soil, it can stunt them for a long time.
If you have a plant that comes in compost or bark, you need to remove at least 80% of it before planting it in clay soil. This can shock the plant for a couple of weeks, but it should recover. You want to shade it during that time too. He recommended putting a trash can next to it to shade it from the sun.
He also said that if you want to line the hole in the clay with something to make sure the plant can breathe, you can use a layer of sand or pumice. A mix with peat can be okay as long as it doesn’t have compost or bark, and it should have permanent materials like pumice or sand in it, some perlite is okay.
Clay can be okay for plants as long as they aren’t sitting in water for weeks. You just water less than with other soils. Clay also has a lot of nutrients. Adding calcium (if needed) can help to flocculate the soil. Also, if you don’t mind a little DIY, JADAM microbial solution, which takes about 3 days to make and has no odor, can help to loosen clay soil.
Bark, or other organic matter, can go on top of clay, but not in it.
About cheeseweed and grasses:
Grasses usually grow in soil that is tight. Their many roots help to loosen the soil and bring in oxygen.
An abundance of cheeseweed indicates the soil is very low in calcium, high in potassium, very high in magnesium, high in iron, high in selenium, low in humus, low in porosity, low in beneficial microbes, hardpan in the soil, poor decay, and it can develop a surface crust in some conditions indicating the improper calcium to magnesium ratio.
So this can give you some information for how to proceed. You definitely need do regular applications of calcium. Definitely need to regularly add in the aerobic microbes, which the JADAM microbial solution can do. Definitely don’t put organic matter into the soil, because it will not break down properly and can create bad gases for the plant. Add organic matter to the top though to start building up humus. Don’t apply any fertilizers with magnesium or iron, and keep potassium very low.
grasshopper
Well-known member
Here are a few articles on how to deal with clay soil:
extension.oregonstate.edu
extension.usu.edu
I only listed university extension program recommendations to gardeners from 3 states but if you search through the rest of the states(I did about 10), you will get the same or similar recommendations.
This last one summarized the 8 best practices that are used by commercial farmers/university programs when dealing with clay soil. Again, nothing new there. Commercial farmers are not going to do this if it doesn't work for them in the field.
Personally, I had amended the last few clay soil yards with the same methods in the past successfully. However, it didn't happen overnight.
Clay soil challenges and solutions for Oregon gardeners
Bark, manure, leaf mold and compost are among the organic amendments commonly used to improve clay soil.
Gardening in Clay Soils
This fact sheet covers the basics of clay, silt and sand soils with an emphasis on gardening in soils with a high clay content. It includes information on the composition of clay soils, gardening tips for managing clay soils, and the types of plants that grow best in clay soils.
I only listed university extension program recommendations to gardeners from 3 states but if you search through the rest of the states(I did about 10), you will get the same or similar recommendations.
This last one summarized the 8 best practices that are used by commercial farmers/university programs when dealing with clay soil. Again, nothing new there. Commercial farmers are not going to do this if it doesn't work for them in the field.
Personally, I had amended the last few clay soil yards with the same methods in the past successfully. However, it didn't happen overnight.
FigLab
Well-known member
@RosyPosy, i love your geeking out posts!Some say most soils contain all of the necessary nutrients but other factors can affect their availability. Like having too much of one nutrient can block out other nutrients. Or also not having enough microbial life can limit nutrient availability, since it is the microbes making the minerals available to the plant roots.
Trees are also more fungal dependent, whereas vegetables need more bacteria. So sometimes people apply what they do for their veggies to trees, but it doesn’t always help in the way they need.
pH and Eh also affect nutrient availability, the type of water we have, etc. Many variables can be involved. But the most basic place to start is with a soil test, that can let you know if anything is not there that should be.
Also, the characteristics of your soil can give a clue too. For example, if you have a lot of weeds or a certain type of weed, that shows you either have bacterial dominant soil or poor microbial life and the type of weed, if a lot of one type, can tell you what minerals are lacking.
Tight, compacted soil has too much magnesium and that will block out important nutrients, such as calcium and others. Calcium will loosen the soil which is good.
Sandy soil doesn’t hold on to nutrients very well and benefits from organic matter.
Sorry, I’m geeking out on it here, but I find soil kind of interesting.
Have you seen the Lab Girl book?
She is a geobiologist, and that is her memoir intermingled with her reflections on trees, flowers, seeds, and soil...there's even our figs and wasps story!
Natalia
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TorontoJoe
Administrator
My experience only
HdA
Fogoin
Pellegrino
Ponte Tresa
HdA
Fogoin
Pellegrino
Ponte Tresa
RosyPosy
Well-known member
I haven’t seen it, I’ll check it out! Thank you
betdempster
Well-known member
Love all this info and bookmarking for later. I have clay and rock down here and also have even noticed seashells when digging. Gotta love subdivisions - have no idea where they got their fill dirt... So I want to plant 6 of my trees in ground in the next month I have holes half dug - back breaking- but every time I look in the holes I see the worst conditions for any plant ever and it's discouraging and don't know what I'm going to do to make it better so thanks to all the people with info on clay here.... I'll study up
grasshopper
Well-known member
I was digging along both sides of the driveway to get it ready to plant some roses and blackberries, which are in the same family. For a 25 ft driveway, I spent a week and half digging out all the construction trash (metal, wood, plastic) & lots of rocks underneath. I ran out of space to put the rocks and later lined them up on the opposite side of the street to form a wall.
My neighbors walking their dogs kept asking me what I was digging or burying
because I only had time to do it after dinner or during lunch hour. Surprisingly, digging on my knees is a very good core exercise. I lost all the belly fat in just that week and a half. I added top soil to avoid working deep with the clay underneath directly. Some of the top soil were from the decomposed wood/mulch and leaves from the backyard, next to the woods. Those were fluffy, light and can be mixed easily with the clay. I was growing raspberries and blackberries in the back so I knew those soil work well with the berries.