Chasing Phenotypes or Just Grab a Cutting?

Figgin' A said:
Aside from cuttings not being equal, as @GoodFriendMike pointed out, I suspect that many fig growers have the wrong understanding and expectations for fig phenotypes. A plant phenotype is a combination of a genotype and the environment. A couple of growers I know keep chasing 'superior' phenotypes, expecting that an outperforming specimen will perform equally well for them elsewhere. This is not always the case. Probably never the case. I keep telling them that it's not only what you grow, it's how you grow it.
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As a geneticist by training I can only agree with you @Figgin' A! But this is not where the story ends: while two cuttings (or, in genetic terms: clones) from the same tree should, in most cases have the exact same genetics (there's a tiny little chance that the cells in one of the apical meristems / the tip of one of the shoots recently acquired a new DNA mutation, but for the sake of simplicity let's not go there now), there CAN be a distinct and rather extensive differences in epi-genetics. In simpler words: despite the genetics being basicly identical, different cuttings from the same tree MIGHT have some genes differentially silenced or activated. These changes are often caused by environmental factors (which could be as trivial as: the shady versus sunny side of the tree). While most of these epi-genetic changes can revert (or further change), they CAN last a long time. In fact, there's evidence in mammalian studies that some epi-genetic changes can be carried into a next generation.
This fact would support a strategy as suggested by @vjmax, but keep in mind: If you have a cutting with good genetics AND good epi-genetics at the time the cutting was taken, you might still blow it by subsequent poor environmental factors during rooting and growing which might throw off the "good" epi-genetics...
When grafting, the impact of the specific rootstock is not limited to better flow of nutrients / ..., but would typically also trigger rootstock-specific epi-genetic changes into the graft/scion.

(edited to add a remark about rootstock)
 
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oat said:
For me top 3 sickly varieties are Hative d’Argenteuil, Ischia Black, and Calderona in that order. I got lucky that my BM is healthy.
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I had an interesting story with my HDA. I got two cuttings from a seller, and I believe both came from the same tree. One grew OK, set a decent amount of fruit, but had a lot of FMD. The other one looked quite sick and ba
Schoenie said:
As a geneticist by training I can only agree with you @Figgin' A! But this is not where the story ends: while two cuttings (or, in genetic terms: clones) from the same tree should, in most cases have the exact same genetics (there's a tiny little chance that the cells in one of the apical meristems / the tip of one of the shoots recently acquired a new DNA mutation, but for the sake of simplicity let's not go there now), there CAN be a distinct and rather extensive differences in epi-genetics. In simpler words: despite the genetics being basicly identical, different cuttings from the same tree MIGHT have some genes differentially silenced or activated. These changes are often caused by environmental factors (which could be as trivial as: the shady versus sunny side of the tree). While most of these epi-genetic changes can revert (or further change), they CAN last a long time. In fact, there's evidence in mammalian studies that some epi-genetic changes can be carried into a next generation.
This fact would support a strategy as suggested by @vjmax, but keep in mind: If you have a cutting with good genetics AND good epi-genetics at the time the cutting was taken, you might still blow it by subsequent poor environmental factors during rooting and growing which might throw off the "good" epi-genetics...
When grafting, the impact of the specific rootstock is not limited to better flow of nutrients / ..., but would typically also trigger rootstock-specific epi-genetic changes into the graft/scion.

(edited to add a remark about rootstock)
Click to expand...
Ah... this explains why some branches on the same tree are thick and strong, while others look sickly... Thank you for weighing in on this topic.
 
Schoenie said:
As a geneticist by training I can only agree with you @Figgin' A! But this is not where the story ends: while two cuttings (or, in genetic terms: clones) from the same tree should, in most cases have the exact same genetics (there's a tiny little chance that the cells in one of the apical meristems / the tip of one of the shoots recently acquired a new DNA mutation, but for the sake of simplicity let's not go there now), there CAN be a distinct and rather extensive differences in epi-genetics. In simpler words: despite the genetics being basicly identical, different cuttings from the same tree MIGHT have some genes differentially silenced or activated. These changes are often caused by environmental factors (which could be as trivial as: the shady versus sunny side of the tree). While most of these epi-genetic changes can revert (or further change), they CAN last a long time. In fact, there's evidence in mammalian studies that some epi-genetic changes can be carried into a next generation.
This fact would support a strategy as suggested by @vjmax, but keep in mind: If you have a cutting with good genetics AND good epi-genetics at the time the cutting was taken, you might still blow it by subsequent poor environmental factors during rooting and growing which might throw off the "good" epi-genetics...
When grafting, the impact of the specific rootstock is not limited to better flow of nutrients / ..., but would typically also trigger rootstock-specific epi-genetic changes into the graft/scion.

(edited to add a remark about rootstock)
Click to expand...
I think there is a study in Morocco that looked at genetic mutations accumulated over centuries of successive vegetative propagations.
 
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Bofig said:
When you get into the mt etnas it’s very evident the phenotype is expressed differently in various environments. For me out of 40+ there wasn’t a whole lot of variation between them. Even the “top tiers” tasted the same as the everyday variety. What I found was proper nutrition and care can take what someone calls just ok to top tier levels. The same can be said of the top tier figs being taken care of poorly yielding inferior tastes. I will say find a flavor profile you really like and then give that your best effort and you will be rewarded. For me it’s hard to find any honey figs I’m excited about, I feel the same with others like Dr gowaty, Atreano, desert king and similar types. For me it’s the dark skin and dark red pulp or even the dark red pulp Adriatics. I plan to chase the highest quality of care on my favorites of the year and then drop the rest over time as you should only grow what you enjoy most as they all take the same input effort. One thing I found was pollination made all figs better if you could keep them from splitting lol. I’m going to get a top 25 over the next year and that will be my collection moving forward. In that sense I can give the best care and effort towards a smaller amount of trees leading to top quality fruit.
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@Bofig Really useful perspective - thanks for taking the time to break it down. Helps frame the whole “phenotype vs care” debate in a much more practical way.
 
grasshopper said:
For me, finding a healthy mother tree is worth the search. I am less concerned with sports/strains performance. I understand cuttings quality from the same tree can vary. But getting cuttings from a healthy tree seems to be a better choice than getting them from a sick one. A sick tree may not be well taken care of, at least that is my impression.

I have done that with BM, which many trees seemed to have problems with FMV. I ended up with a few of BM types. They are either the same or closely related so no need to get multiple ones unless you really want to compare. Ischia Black is another one that finding a healthy copy seems to be worth the effort.

As for Mt Etnas, I also have a quite a few of them. They don't all belong to the same group. But I understand if they seem similar to some growers, it is a matter of convenience to lump them together. That may have mixed the true synonyms with bookkeeping. I don't see a problem people pick their favorite Mt Etna and cull the rest, if they can't tell the difference.
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@grasshopper Thanks - this is super helpful. Prioritizing a clean, vigorous mother tree over strain lore seems like the most rational way to minimize FMV and performance noise, especially for BM/IB lines
 
Figless said:
I do believe in Superior phenotypes. I do believe in Superior phenotypes. I do believe in Superior phenotypes. But has been mentioned just cuz you get a cutting from one doesn't mean the traits will necessarily carry on. Certainly @Figgin' A seems to hit many of his varieties right out of the Fig Park. So he may be in fact correct. On the other hand I have certainly seen some Superior strains pop out of a group of cuttings all taken from the same mother tree. All of them treated exactly the same, all of them in the exact same environment. I will also relay a story about Superior phenotype cuttings. Once Upon a Time many long years ago I used to occupy a lot of my time growing hemp as a hobby. Every now and then we would get a rare long sought after mother tree. On more than a few occasions we would take 50 or more cuttings from the same mother tree at almost the same time. So everybody would be up potted with the name of the variety and then the number from which it's cutting was taken. Very quickly certain numbers were certainly Superior to others eventually the cuttings all came down to about five out of 50 numbered original cuttings. I could have told you which ones would be the final survivors years before it actually came to that. Some cuttings were seriously better than others even though all environmental, and genetic factors we're the same genetic factors were absolutely the same. This experiment was conducted several times with very similar results. My personal belief is that fig cuttings are not taken from the same mother tree in anywhere near those type of numbers. So results like I experienced many times are really not easily duplicatable with Figs. Doesn't mean that sometimes a seeded Orange tree doesn't grow into a priceless Navel Orange, or a Fuerte avocado doesn't grow into a priceless Hass Avocado. These things do happen. I certainly take time out a few times a year to beg a certain FF member for a cutting or two from his amazing VDB tree. Sadly the one time I got two cuttings they both failed.
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@Figless
Thanks for the deep dive - that cutting-by-number experiment is probably the closest we’ll ever get to a real phenotype test in this hobby. It shows how even identical cuttings can still throw surprises. And thanks again for sharing that superior VDB cutting with me - really appreciate it.
 
Schoenie said:
As a geneticist by training I can only agree with you @Figgin' A! But this is not where the story ends: while two cuttings (or, in genetic terms: clones) from the same tree should, in most cases have the exact same genetics (there's a tiny little chance that the cells in one of the apical meristems / the tip of one of the shoots recently acquired a new DNA mutation, but for the sake of simplicity let's not go there now), there CAN be a distinct and rather extensive differences in epi-genetics. In simpler words: despite the genetics being basicly identical, different cuttings from the same tree MIGHT have some genes differentially silenced or activated. These changes are often caused by environmental factors (which could be as trivial as: the shady versus sunny side of the tree). While most of these epi-genetic changes can revert (or further change), they CAN last a long time. In fact, there's evidence in mammalian studies that some epi-genetic changes can be carried into a next generation.
This fact would support a strategy as suggested by @vjmax, but keep in mind: If you have a cutting with good genetics AND good epi-genetics at the time the cutting was taken, you might still blow it by subsequent poor environmental factors during rooting and growing which might throw off the "good" epi-genetics...
When grafting, the impact of the specific rootstock is not limited to better flow of nutrients / ..., but would typically also trigger rootstock-specific epi-genetic changes into the graft/scion.

(edited to add a remark about rootstock)
Click to expand...

@Schoenie Thanks for breaking that down - the epigenetic angle really adds another layer to this. Makes sense why two cuttings with identical DNA can still behave very differently depending on where and how they were taken. Definitely reinforces the idea that starting with both solid genetics and a healthy, well-cared-for source cutting gives you the best shot, though even then environment keeps playing a big role. The grafting point is fascinating too - didn’t fully appreciate how much a rootstock can tweak epi-effects on the scion.
 
@vjmax and @all y'all I need to update just how the numbered cutting experiment from the same mother tree was conducted. There was one potted mother tree underneath at 4 ft round reflector under a thousand watt high pressure sodium vertically mounted light. Yes there would be minor variations in the foot candle light received by any particular branch. But the mother tree was grown on a Wire platform with a completely flat canopy. All the cuttings were taken from the Leading Edge of the flat wire supported canopy. Each one as it was taken was given a number. The Leading Edge of the canopy was 3 inch to 4inch from the edge of the 4-ft reflector or about 41 inches around. So all cuttings were roughly taken with the same exposure to light. And then given their number from 1 to 50. So some pains were taken to make the test as equal as I could make it. All cuttings were rooted underneath a 4 tube T5 full spectrum bulb reflector. All we're given the same rooting medium in the same size cups with the same fertilizer. The temperature for all was exactly the same the rooting T5 tube light was as equal as I could make it then all the 50 trees were grown underneath 4-ft reflector utilizing a thousand watt high pressure sodium bulb with the same soil and same size pots. The pots were all rotated to give everyone as equal a foot candle exposure of light underneath the four foot reflector as possible. Was this a perfect test? not by any means. But during the conditions of the day before LED reflectors it was as equal as I could make it.
 
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ZomVee said:
Every time I'm around my Algerian Chetoui (Or Smith if you're a lumper) it's fig fragrant...even now after the leaves have fallen.

I wonder if there's varieties that have more fragrant wood? Is there an undisputed most fragrant wood variety?
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I have noticed some cuttings have a way stronger smell. Mainly the Capri. My wife says those cuttings stink. But have noticed it with female figs as well. Seems so far the smyrna types are stronger smelling. Maybe to attract the wasp???
 
GoodFriendMike said:
I have noticed some cuttings have a way stronger smell. Mainly the Capri. My wife says those cuttings stink. But have noticed it with female figs as well. Seems so far the smyrna types are stronger smelling. Maybe to attract the wasp???
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A cutting I had that turned out to be a caprifig was one of the best smelling cuttings I’ve ever received, it was like brown sugar and creamy coconut. It tasted good too and made the best fig leaf tea.
 
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