Chasing Phenotypes or Just Grab a Cutting?

vjmax

vjmax

Well-known member
I’ve been chasing phenotypes (in this forum and elsewhere), but can a cutting from a nursery, with proper care, reach its full genetic potential? Or does starting with a proven phenotype really matter?


P.S. Asking because upcoming nursery sales might be an easier and cheaper way to fill my wishlist, even if the plants aren’t the healthiest looking(in their videos).

Your opinions and thoughts are highly appreciated.
 
Aside from cuttings not being equal, as @GoodFriendMike pointed out, I suspect that many fig growers have the wrong understanding and expectations for fig phenotypes. A plant phenotype is a combination of a genotype and the environment. A couple of growers I know keep chasing 'superior' phenotypes, expecting that an outperforming specimen will perform equally well for them elsewhere. This is not always the case. Probably never the case. I keep telling them that it's not only what you grow, it's how you grow it.
 
Figgin' A said:
Aside from cuttings not being equal, as @GoodFriendMike pointed out, I suspect that many fig growers have the wrong understanding and expectations for fig phenotypes. A plant phenotype is a combination of a genotype and the environment. A couple of growers I know keep chasing 'superior' phenotypes, expecting that an outperforming specimen will perform equally well for them elsewhere. This is not always the case. Probably never the case. I keep telling them that it's not only what you grow, it's how you grow it.
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↑Exactly this.
 
Figgin' A said:
Aside from cuttings not being equal, as @GoodFriendMike pointed out, I suspect that many fig growers have the wrong understanding and expectations for fig phenotypes. A plant phenotype is a combination of a genotype and the environment. A couple of growers I know keep chasing 'superior' phenotypes, expecting that an outperforming specimen will perform equally well for them elsewhere. This is not always the case. Probably never the case. I keep telling them that it's not only what you grow, it's how you grow it.
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Very wise.
 
Figgin' A said:
Aside from cuttings not being equal, as @GoodFriendMike pointed out, I suspect that many fig growers have the wrong understanding and expectations for fig phenotypes. A plant phenotype is a combination of a genotype and the environment. A couple of growers I know keep chasing 'superior' phenotypes, expecting that an outperforming specimen will perform equally well for them elsewhere. This is not always the case. Probably never the case. I keep telling them that it's not only what you grow, it's how you grow it.
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@Figgin' A Thanks & makes complete sense. Do you personally chase particular cuttings of a variety, or are you comfortable buying from any nursery as long as they’re reliably true-to-type?
 
I think the chasing of better phenotypes is best represented by the Black Madeira synonyms. FMV viral load makes a huge difference in the performance. People kept re-introducing varieties that either are synonyms or closely-related varieties and hobbyists kept collecting more with the hope that it will improve their results.

In my opinion a few might be a sport or a close cousin. Most are likely just synonyms that sometime express lower viral load.
 
When you get into the mt etnas it’s very evident the phenotype is expressed differently in various environments. For me out of 40+ there wasn’t a whole lot of variation between them. Even the “top tiers” tasted the same as the everyday variety. What I found was proper nutrition and care can take what someone calls just ok to top tier levels. The same can be said of the top tier figs being taken care of poorly yielding inferior tastes. I will say find a flavor profile you really like and then give that your best effort and you will be rewarded. For me it’s hard to find any honey figs I’m excited about, I feel the same with others like Dr gowaty, Atreano, desert king and similar types. For me it’s the dark skin and dark red pulp or even the dark red pulp Adriatics. I plan to chase the highest quality of care on my favorites of the year and then drop the rest over time as you should only grow what you enjoy most as they all take the same input effort. One thing I found was pollination made all figs better if you could keep them from splitting lol. I’m going to get a top 25 over the next year and that will be my collection moving forward. In that sense I can give the best care and effort towards a smaller amount of trees leading to top quality fruit.
 
Bofig said:
When you get into the mt etnas it’s very evident the phenotype is expressed differently in various environments. For me out of 40+ there wasn’t a whole lot of variation between them. Even the “top tiers” tasted the same as the everyday variety. What I found was proper nutrition and care can take what someone calls just ok to top tier levels. The same can be said of the top tier figs being taken care of poorly yielding inferior tastes. I will say find a flavor profile you really like and then give that your best effort and you will be rewarded. For me it’s hard to find any honey figs I’m excited about, I feel the same with others like Dr gowaty, Atreano, desert king and similar types. For me it’s the dark skin and dark red pulp or even the dark red pulp Adriatics. I plan to chase the highest quality of care on my favorites of the year and then drop the rest over time as you should only grow what you enjoy most as they all take the same input effort. One thing I found was pollination made all figs better if you could keep them from splitting lol. I’m going to get a top 25 over the next year and that will be my collection moving forward. In that sense I can give the best care and effort towards a smaller amount of trees leading to top quality fruit.
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For me... Etna's came down to fruit size. My main, in ground tree puts out awesome specimens averaging 40-50g.

I get so much fruiting wood on this tree. Most of it ends in the shredder I'm seeking for a better use for all the wood. .
 
For me, finding a healthy mother tree is worth the search. I am less concerned with sports/strains performance. I understand cuttings quality from the same tree can vary. But getting cuttings from a healthy tree seems to be a better choice than getting them from a sick one. A sick tree may not be well taken care of, at least that is my impression.

I have done that with BM, which many trees seemed to have problems with FMV. I ended up with a few of BM types. They are either the same or closely related so no need to get multiple ones unless you really want to compare. Ischia Black is another one that finding a healthy copy seems to be worth the effort.

As for Mt Etnas, I also have a quite a few of them. They don't all belong to the same group. But I understand if they seem similar to some growers, it is a matter of convenience to lump them together. That may have mixed the true synonyms with bookkeeping. I don't see a problem people pick their favorite Mt Etna and cull the rest, if they can't tell the difference.
 
grasshopper said:
For me, finding a healthy mother tree is worth the search. I am less concerned with sports/strains performance. I understand cuttings quality from the same tree can vary. But getting cuttings from a healthy tree seems to be a better choice than getting them from a sick one. A sick tree may not be well taken care of, at least that is my impression.

I have done that with BM, which many trees seemed to have problems with FMV. I ended up with a few of BM types. They are either the same or closely related so no need to get multiple ones unless you really want to compare. Ischia Black is another one that finding a healthy copy seems to be worth the effort.

As for Mt Etnas, I also have a quite a few of them. They don't all belong to the same group. But I understand if they seem similar to some growers, it is a matter of convenience to lump them together. That may have mixed the true synonyms with bookkeeping. I don't see a problem people pick their favorite Mt Etna and cull the rest, if they can't tell the difference.
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For me top 3 sickly varieties are Hative d’Argenteuil, Ischia Black, and Calderona in that order. I got lucky that my BM is healthy.
 
vjmax said:
@Figgin' A Thanks & makes complete sense. Do you personally chase particular cuttings of a variety, or are you comfortable buying from any nursery as long as they’re reliably true-to-type?
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You are welcome. I don't. At one time, I bought cuttings of Smith from two very different sources after reading all the horror stories about how some Smith strains are not productive for 3+ years... that didn't turn out to be true for me. One took off right away and was loaded with figs in the first year. The second one almost got me... it had lots of what looked like FMD and didn't set any fruit... but after some TLC, about a month and a half later, it exploded with fruit, and signs of FMV went away. That, and some other examples, made me realize that there are no super strains; it's all about how you grow your trees, hence there is no need to chase them.

I pay attention to who I buy from. I generally avoid nurseries and prefer buying from known collectors, like Troy Priddy, who was just mentioned in another thread. Great quality cuttings at very reasonable prices. You take your chances, of course. I bought crappy quality cuttings from a couple of sellers on FigBid... needless to say, I will never buy from them again. I generally don't spend much on cuttings, so if I get a dud, I won't stress about it. The vast majority have been great, though. Last year, I bought a couple of dozen cutting from Figaholics for the first time. The quality was top-notch.
 
oat said:
For me top 3 sickly varieties are Hative d’Argenteuil, Ischia Black, and Calderona in that order. I got lucky that my BM is healthy.
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I had a Calderona long ago and it was very slow growing even though it was on a graft with Brown turkey as roostock. I didn't restart the Calderona but instead, I got the BFF from Bass, which was a healthy specimen from the start.

I didn't have any issue with HdA but I also got it from a healthy tree.

I agree the amount of care I put in determine the end outcome. To me, part of the care is to get a cutting from a healthy or well cared tree from a trusted worthy source.
 
I do believe in Superior phenotypes. I do believe in Superior phenotypes. I do believe in Superior phenotypes. But has been mentioned just cuz you get a cutting from one doesn't mean the traits will necessarily carry on. Certainly @Figgin' A seems to hit many of his varieties right out of the Fig Park. So he may be in fact correct. On the other hand I have certainly seen some Superior strains pop out of a group of cuttings all taken from the same mother tree. All of them treated exactly the same, all of them in the exact same environment. I will also relay a story about Superior phenotype cuttings. Once Upon a Time many long years ago I used to occupy a lot of my time growing hemp as a hobby. Every now and then we would get a rare long sought after mother tree. On more than a few occasions we would take 50 or more cuttings from the same mother tree at almost the same time. So everybody would be up potted with the name of the variety and then the number from which it's cutting was taken. Very quickly certain numbers were certainly Superior to others eventually the cuttings all came down to about five out of 50 numbered original cuttings. I could have told you which ones would be the final survivors years before it actually came to that. Some cuttings were seriously better than others even though all environmental, and genetic factors we're the same genetic factors were absolutely the same. This experiment was conducted several times with very similar results. My personal belief is that fig cuttings are not taken from the same mother tree in anywhere near those type of numbers. So results like I experienced many times are really not easily duplicatable with Figs. Doesn't mean that sometimes a seeded Orange tree doesn't grow into a priceless Navel Orange, or a Fuerte avocado doesn't grow into a priceless Hass Avocado. These things do happen. I certainly take time out a few times a year to beg a certain FF member for a cutting or two from his amazing VDB tree. Sadly the one time I got two cuttings they both failed.
 
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