"lack of knowledge or information"

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epiphyte

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according to the oxford dictionary, ignorance is the "lack of knowledge or information".

in my thread about ficus timlada i wrote something like, "we all lack knowledge/information about the demand for topics." i'm not exactly sure what i wrote because @GoodFriendMike removed it based on complaints he received.

where's the issue?

x = my use of the word "ignorance"
y = my claim that we all lack information about something

maybe some examples would help...

prior to 2024, we all lacked knowledge/information about ficus timlada. this is a fact. does this fact offend any of you? if so, please help me understand how, exactly, it's offensive.

prior to 2024, we all lacked knowledge/information about whether it was possible to cross ficus carica and ficus opposita. again, this is a fact. does it offend any of you? if so, please clarify.

right now we all lack knowledge/information about the demand for ficus timlada and ficus opposita x carica. again, this is a fact. does it offend any of you? if so, please explain.

i don't have ficus timlada, sadly, but i do have ficus opposita x carica. i plan to put it on figbid. when i do so, then we won't all lack knowledge/information about the demand for it. the higher the winning bid, the greater the incentive for myself and others to supply more of this hybrid and make new ones.

to use a sports analogy, in basketball a half court shot is worth only 3 points. i googled to learn why they aren't worth more points and found this reddit post on the topic. if half court shots were worth more points, then more players would try to make them, and evidently this wouldn't be very interesting to watch. personally i don't watch basketball but when i play basketball for fun, i'm happy to give the opposing team 5 points for half court shots. chances are good they are going to miss and lose possession of the ball. if they don't miss, then hey man nice shot.

knowing what things are worth is incredibly important. not knowing what things are worth is incredibly detrimental.

in my thread about common vs common figs i said that forum rules should be ranked by donations. goodfriendmike has the idea that there's a rule against saying that we all lack knowledge/information about something. but i'm pretty sure that it isn't a formal rule. somehow i can't find the forum rules. if goodfriendmike thinks that it should be a formal rule, then he should have the opportunity to donate for it. everyone should have the same opportunity. and then we'd all see and learn what this rule is actually worth.

1. no community benefits from following worthless rules
2. the worth of a rule can only be determined by donations
 
Carlos, It would be ignorant of me to believe I can make everyone here happy.
But I am not here to make everyone happy. That is impossible.
Rules I must say are in place for a reason. Tho some may not like them.
They are needed.
Calling people ignorant is not allowed here. Plain and simple.
 
x = pointing out when we all lack knowledge/information
y = pointing out when we are all ignorant

y isn't allowed? is x allowed?
 
if you point out that nobody knows whether a specific caprifig is persistent, are you being disrespectful?

forum rules really shouldn't contradict the very point of forums. when there's some useful knowledge/information, but nobody has it, then we need to highlight this. we should shout it from the mountain tops. the last thing we should do is bury our heads in the sand and pretend that somebody has it.

when there's some really useful knowledge/information that we ALL lack, pretending otherwise is not only disrespectful to the community, but it's an incredible disservice. it's 100% counterproductive to the very point of forums.

we should all be here to learn from each other. this means admitting and acknowledging when we don't know things. and when nobody can teach us something useful/important, we need to recognize this and figure out how to solve it.

is ficus opposita x carica resistant to rkn? nobody has the answer. nobody. we ALL lack this knowledge/information. admitting this isn't disrespectful. admitting it is the 1st step towards education and enlightenment. anything that hinders this 1st step is disrespectful and a disservice.
 
epiphyte said:
if you point out that nobody knows whether a specific caprifig is persistent, are you being disrespectful?

forum rules really shouldn't contradict the very point of forums. when there's some useful knowledge/information, but nobody has it, then we need to highlight this. we should shout it from the mountain tops. the last thing we should do is bury our heads in the sand and pretend that somebody has it.

when there's some really useful knowledge/information that we ALL lack, pretending otherwise is not only disrespectful to the community, but it's an incredible disservice. it's 100% counterproductive to the very point of forums.

we should all be here to learn from each other. this means admitting and acknowledging when we don't know things. and when nobody can teach us something useful/important, we need to recognize this and figure out how to solve it.

is ficus opposita x carica resistant to rkn? nobody has the answer. nobody. we ALL lack this knowledge/information. admitting this isn't disrespectful. admitting it is the 1st step towards education and enlightenment. anything that hinders this 1st step is disrespectful and a disservice.
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I agree 100%. But shall we call those who do not know Ignorant?
Or shall we teach them?
Plant a seed in fertile soil it grows. Plant it in toxic soil it dies.
 
IRESPECTIVE OF THE OXFORD DEFFINITION ,BEING CALLED IGNORANT IS CLEARLY A INSULT IN THE COMON VONACULAR IN THIS DAY AND AGE . SEEMS to me the idea to vote with dollars donated to this forum as a way to set ,change or remove forum rules has not gotten much support from the members ? AM i missing something ?
 
Socrates was considered the smartest man alive when he acknowledged that all he knew was that he knew nothing.

Ignorant seems like a word that a person can use for themselves and it's all good, but if you point it at someone else, then there's a problem.

I'm totally ignorant of x.

You're totally ignorant of y.

Ehh, people can call me anything they want in PMs, but the public forum should be respectful.
 
I think the problem here derives from the word 'ignorance' having two distinct meanings – the insulting one one we all know, and a more academic one akin to 'not knowing'.

By way of example, I doubt anyone would take the phrase "Ignorance is bliss" - i.e. ignorance in the sense 'lack of knowledge' – as being in any way offensive.

Personally I would not consider it offensive at all to contend that "we are all ignorant" - equivalent to "there are many things we do not know" - though of course I am ignorant of the exact way Epiphyte expressed himself in the deleted post.
 
I read through the thread about common vs. common figs, and have a few comments but I'll post them here, since this is the more recent of the two.

Before I start, a few things about me: I have a BS in Environmental Science/Chemistry with a minor in Biology. I was a chemist for some time before becoming a teacher. Because of the exposure to naturalist-type field work in my studies, I have done some biological inventories (solo) for reptiles, amphibians, and dragonflies/damselflies, and have also helped with botanical studies. I'm letting you know this because I'm no stranger to the use of scientific terminology, and understand the need for very exact language in some circumstances.

Regarding language, ignorance, parthenocarpic vs. common, etc., it's worth keeping in mind that there's a time and a place for very exact language between peers, there's a time and a place for teaching others, and there's a time and a place for relaxed, casual conversation. One of the things that I really enjoy about this forum is the relaxed, casual conversation with the opportunity to learn from others who are much more knowledgeable than I am. I also enjoy when very knowledgeable people who are having conversations between peers are using facts and language that is helping me learn more, either through the context of their conversation or through subsequent Googling. What would turn me off, and might even drive me to leave the forum (and would probably chase others away as well), is the presence of members who would be ready to scold me for lack of understanding as a new grower, or parade their own knowledge around in a haughty, superior way that makes it draining to have a conversation with them. Even with the best intentions, it's easy to sound unnecessarily pedantic, which is a huge turn-off in a social setting.

I think the socially graceful way to go about what you are trying to achieve might be to put together a resource, like a sticky, that addresses Ficus-related language as it is used in casual conversation, as well as some facts that you might feel that newer growers could benefit from learning. This way the knowledge is there for others to easily access, and the competence in Ficus-related language would increase over time through members who adopt the language.

When I lead nature walks to educate the public about reptiles, for example, if there's a misunderstanding, there's a graceful way to point it out. I might say "hey here's a little-known fact about ________ " with a smile, not only addressing them but also assuming that it's a widespread misconception (it often is). That can be done over a forum. Someone mentions common figs, and you chime in with "hey, not sure if you knew, but fun fact about parthenocarpy" and then let it go. There are too many people dragging others on Facebook and other social media platforms for not knowing things, when we all started from scratch on the journey. It's good to be graceful towards others who are not as far along as us, and grateful for others who are farther along.

Thanks for listening,

-W
 
wyanokie said:
I have done some biological inventories (solo) for reptiles, amphibians, and dragonflies/damselflies, and have also helped with botanical studies.
Click to expand...
Every summer in San Diego an orange dragonfly would show up and chill in my garden, possibly a neon skimmer, I dunno exactly, but it was always cool. I'd pretty sure I've seen a dragonfly out here in SWVA, but I didn't make any careful observations and I've only seen one summer.

wyanokie said:
One of the things that I really enjoy about this forum is the relaxed, casual conversation with the opportunity to learn from others who are much more knowledgeable than I am.
Click to expand...

Most of us here became friends on another forum. It's supposed to be chill here and a place to nerd out. 🤓
 
@epiphyte @GoodFriendMike I would take it as a personal favor if such conversation happened by private message. All of you, Plus @Charlie Dodgson, @wyanokie , and of course All, Y'All represent perhaps the greatest body of Ficus knowledge, and genetics on this platform. Between various members engaging in serious debate on matters of scientific vocabulary, pertaining, or concerning factual knowledge, and biologic fiction, and other matters clearly over my head.

I have been informed that ...
(The Management) has spared no expense in providing us a regulation alleyway in the back of this platform for the settling of disputes. Physical, or otherwise philosophical in nature. It's called a direct message.

Private, and completely confidential. It has been designed to allow more than two members to engage in debate at one time. While keeping the sanctity , and dignity of this beloved Institution completely, and safely intact.
 
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dondan said:
I think the problem here derives from the word 'ignorance' having two distinct meanings – the insulting one one we all know, and a more academic one akin to 'not knowing'.

By way of example, I doubt anyone would take the phrase "Ignorance is bliss" - i.e. ignorance in the sense 'lack of knowledge' – as being in any way offensive.

Personally I would not consider it offensive at all to contend that "we are all ignorant" - equivalent to "there are many things we do not know" - though of course I am ignorant of the exact way Epiphyte expressed himself in the deleted post.
Click to expand...

in the deleted post i used the word "ignorance" in the academic way. i didn't single out any forum member. i didn't accuse any specific individual of being ignorant. that is not my style, and there's absolutely no precedent in any of my previous posts of me randomly insulting or attacking other members.

what i said, more or less, is that we all lack information about the demand for topics. what's the demand for threads about grafting? we don't know. nobody knows.

for nearly all my life i personally lacked knowledge/information about grafting. i didn't know how to graft. then one day i decided i wanted to learn, so i watched a youtube video. i went out and grafted onto my mango tree and cherimoya tree. my grafts were successful and this encouraged me to try more grafting. i realized that grafting is incredibly useful and i regret not learning how to graft a long time ago.

one thing that i'd love to be able to do is send an email to myself 20 years ago. it would be a long email. but if the email could only be one paragraph, less than 200 words, then i'd definitely include the strong suggestion to learn how to graft. sadly it isn't possible to communicate "the most important stuff i've learned" to my past self. but it is possible to communicate this to people a lot younger than myself.

right now there's no forum category for grafting. this gives the impression that it isn't very important. perhaps all the existing forum categories are more important than grafting? we don't know. the only way for us to learn would be if we are all given the opportunity to donate for the most important categories.

how much money would you donate for a grafting category? we don't know.
how much money would everyone donate for a grafting category? we don't know.
who would donate the most money for a grafting category? we don't know.
which category would receive more money, grafting or caprifigs? we don't know.

we're better off not knowing? ignorance is bliss? nope nope.

a modern day johnny appleseed traveling far and wide sowing apple seeds is only a horticultural hero if there's more demand for apples than for figs. because if the demand for figs is 100x greater than the demand for apples, then he's messing up. he should be sowing fig seeds instead of apple seeds. he should be johnny figseed instead of johnny appleseed.

whether we're talking about fig trees, fig topics or fig forum rules, in no case is it beneficial for everyone to be ignorant of demand.

me: i want a category for grafting
everyone: how urgently do you want it?
me: $____________

it really matters if i answer with $0.01 or $10 or $1000.

me: i want a fig resistant to black fig fly (bff)
everyone: how urgently do you want it?
me: $____________

it really matters if i answer with $0.01 or $10 or $1000.

markets work because they are based on the idea that it does truly matter how urgently people want things, and urgency can only be measured by personal sacrifice. the trick is understanding and appreciating that markets are just as necessary for intangible things as they are for tangible things. otherwise a forum ends up with a lot of categories....

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.... but they aren't ranked by importance. how important is the topic of flasking to orchids? well, there's no category for it. just like there's no category for grafting on this forum. but neither forum uses demand to prioritize categories. i've been a member of the orchidboard for many years and initially i took the time and made the effort to answer questions by new members. but it got ridiculous when i started to copy and paste the same answers over and over. and so "sticky" threads were invented so that the most requested information stayed at the top of the page. but the prioritization of information shouldn't be arbitrarily or randomly decided. it should be decided based on demand.

it's understandable to be skeptical about the usefulness of markets. but this is what makes side-by-side experiments so useful.

here on figfanatic we can use demand to prioritize topics. and on the orchidboard they can continue with the traditional system. on which forum will people level up faster? this forum. because the most experienced members here aren't going to donate for random topics. they are going to donate for the most useful topics, which won't be overlooked by the least experienced members, so they will quickly level up.

currently i'm the only member of this forum to have made a fig hybrid. i really don't want to be the only fig hybridizer on this forum. so i've spent a lot of time trying to encourage others to make hybrids. spending time should always be an option. but i should also have the option to spend my money. i want the opportunity to donate for a hybridization category. how much would i donate? nobody knows. myself included.
 
wyanokie said:
I read through the thread about common vs. common figs, and have a few comments but I'll post them here, since this is the more recent of the two.

Before I start, a few things about me: I have a BS in Environmental Science/Chemistry with a minor in Biology. I was a chemist for some time before becoming a teacher. Because of the exposure to naturalist-type field work in my studies, I have done some biological inventories (solo) for reptiles, amphibians, and dragonflies/damselflies, and have also helped with botanical studies. I'm letting you know this because I'm no stranger to the use of scientific terminology, and understand the need for very exact language in some circumstances.

Regarding language, ignorance, parthenocarpic vs. common, etc., it's worth keeping in mind that there's a time and a place for very exact language between peers, there's a time and a place for teaching others, and there's a time and a place for relaxed, casual conversation. One of the things that I really enjoy about this forum is the relaxed, casual conversation with the opportunity to learn from others who are much more knowledgeable than I am. I also enjoy when very knowledgeable people who are having conversations between peers are using facts and language that is helping me learn more, either through the context of their conversation or through subsequent Googling. What would turn me off, and might even drive me to leave the forum (and would probably chase others away as well), is the presence of members who would be ready to scold me for lack of understanding as a new grower, or parade their own knowledge around in a haughty, superior way that makes it draining to have a conversation with them. Even with the best intentions, it's easy to sound unnecessarily pedantic, which is a huge turn-off in a social setting.

I think the socially graceful way to go about what you are trying to achieve might be to put together a resource, like a sticky, that addresses Ficus-related language as it is used in casual conversation, as well as some facts that you might feel that newer growers could benefit from learning. This way the knowledge is there for others to easily access, and the competence in Ficus-related language would increase over time through members who adopt the language.

When I lead nature walks to educate the public about reptiles, for example, if there's a misunderstanding, there's a graceful way to point it out. I might say "hey here's a little-known fact about ________ " with a smile, not only addressing them but also assuming that it's a widespread misconception (it often is). That can be done over a forum. Someone mentions common figs, and you chime in with "hey, not sure if you knew, but fun fact about parthenocarpy" and then let it go. There are too many people dragging others on Facebook and other social media platforms for not knowing things, when we all started from scratch on the journey. It's good to be graceful towards others who are not as far along as us, and grateful for others who are farther along.

Thanks for listening,

-W
Click to expand...
 
epiphyte said:
according to the oxford dictionary, ignorance is the "lack of knowledge or information".

in my thread about ficus timlada i wrote something like, "we all lack knowledge/information about the demand for topics." i'm not exactly sure what i wrote because @GoodFriendMike removed it based on complaints he received.

where's the issue?

x = my use of the word "ignorance"
y = my claim that we all lack information about something

maybe some examples would help...

prior to 2024, we all lacked knowledge/information about ficus timlada. this is a fact. does this fact offend any of you? if so, please help me understand how, exactly, it's offensive.

prior to 2024, we all lacked knowledge/information about whether it was possible to cross ficus carica and ficus opposita. again, this is a fact. does it offend any of you? if so, please clarify.

right now we all lack knowledge/information about the demand for ficus timlada and ficus opposita x carica. again, this is a fact. does it offend any of you? if so, please explain.

i don't have ficus timlada, sadly, but i do have ficus opposita x carica. i plan to put it on figbid. when i do so, then we won't all lack knowledge/information about the demand for it. the higher the winning bid, the greater the incentive for myself and others to supply more of this hybrid and make new ones.

to use a sports analogy, in basketball a half court shot is worth only 3 points. i googled to learn why they aren't worth more points and found this reddit post on the topic. if half court shots were worth more points, then more players would try to make them, and evidently this wouldn't be very interesting to watch. personally i don't watch basketball but when i play basketball for fun, i'm happy to give the opposing team 5 points for half court shots. chances are good they are going to miss and lose possession of the ball. if they don't miss, then hey man nice shot.

knowing what things are worth is incredibly important. not knowing what things are worth is incredibly detrimental.

in my thread about common vs common figs i said that forum rules should be ranked by donations. goodfriendmike has the idea that there's a rule against saying that we all lack knowledge/information about something. but i'm pretty sure that it isn't a formal rule. somehow i can't find the forum rules. if goodfriendmike thinks that it should be a formal rule, then he should have the opportunity to donate for it. everyone should have the same opportunity. and then we'd all see and learn what this rule is actually worth.

1. no community benefits from following worthless rules
2. the worth of a rule can only be determined by donations
Click to expand...
I will speak for myself here. As a novice to figs I was very hesitant to start interacting with this community, everyone seems so knowledgeable it's intimidating. But the open and kind and drama free atmosphere makes it very easy to take part in this forum.

Please keep that in mind, I enjoy reading the higher brow threads but it concerns me when someone wants to start policing the content when the manner in which this community is managed is already exemplary.
 
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