Do You Think…

[Inflorescence]

Do you think that repeatedly cloning fruit trees through cuttings creates genetically weak plants? I am thinking specifically of fig trees with this.

Explanation for the question:
Most fruit trees are meant to live under 100 years. For example, apple trees have a lifespan of 30-50 years, citrus 50-100 years, etc. Fig trees do seem to have a longer lifespan with some going up or over 200 years.

But because these trees have a life limit, do you think that clones of trees where the original tree is long gone because its lifespan has been met have weaker cells?

I’ve been going down the rabbit hole of landrace gardening and so it has me thinking about why some trees seem so susceptible to disease or insect attack. It is said a clone is actually the same age as the mother…

 

[ktrain]

I'd have to say no, cells get weak and die new cells are created continuously.
Many cloned trees are amazingly large, old, and healthy.

 

[Steven J.]

Cool question. I think it is very possible. At the very least, the older ones may have more viruses that slow them down.

You are probably aware of this, but potatoes are a great example. They seem to lose productivity quickly. The "seed potatoes" they sell us are really just clones that are less productive than the first generation, grown from true potato seeds.

 

[Inflorescence]

Cool question. I think it is very possible. At the very least, the older ones may have more viruses that slow them down.

You are probably aware of this, but potatoes are a great example. They seem to lose productivity quickly. The "seed potatoes" they sell us are really just clones that are less productive than the first generation, grown from true potato seeds.

HA! It was exactly because of watching videos on landrace potatoes I was thinking of this. (Side point, I just purchased a bunch of TPS to see if I can get a landrace potato going for me as the seed potatoes generally don’t do well for me here.)

My fig seedlings seem hardier, but I don’t if they actually are. I was thinking about it in relation to BFF, contemplating why now after all these years that it’s affecting so much. I know the answer people will want to give to that, but I don’t think it’s a full picture answer. But also with how many cuttings start off with nutrient deficiencies, mites, or what people call FMV… is it because they’re “weak” more than just in the sense of getting started… I dunno.

 

[GoodFriendMike]

I don’t think so. Well I say that. But I think a lot of it depends on what trees we are cloning. Clone a healthy tree. Get a healthy tree.
And thinking of seedlings.
I left a few out in the cold and snow just to see. Some had die back but others had none.

 

[Figgerlickinggood]

@Inflorescence if what you say is true then for me it won’t matter because at my age my trees should last long enough to bring me happiness and joy and fruit. I have to say though I find it very interesting information. I heard it illustrated once if one takes a picture and copies it in a old type copy machine than makes another copy not from the original picture but from the copy of the original and then continues to make the next copy from the next copy each one is more faded than the previous one till it’s useless to copy anymore. This is a GREAT THREAD. Thanks for posting this. You deserve 5 stars.

 

[Inflorescence]

I'd have to say no, cells get weak and die new cells are created continuously.
Many cloned trees are amazingly large, old, and healthy.

That is very true that many of these trees grow into great trees and a very valid point. But I guess it’s like in the sense of with humans— humans will make new cells up to the day they die. At some point in there they start making cells that are not as good as before and have effects from aging.

So like with say Black Madeira where it has a reputation of slow growth, could it have anything to do with genetically aged cells? Just the random stuff my brain contemplates in the middle of the night, haha.

 

[Inflorescence]

I don’t think so. Well I say that. But I think a lot of it depends on what trees we are cloning. Clone a healthy tree. Get a healthy tree.
And thinking of seedlings.
I left a few out in the cold and snow just to see. Some had die back but others had none.

There is so much that could factor into it…

Interesting the ones that didn’t have any die back. Will you use them for breeding stock or is that a trait you’re not as concerned about given where you live?

 

[Inflorescence]

@Inflorescence if what you say is true then for me it won’t matter because at my age my trees should last long enough to bring me happiness and joy and fruit. I have to say though I find it very interesting information. I heard it illustrated once if one takes a picture and copies it in a old type copy machine than makes another copy not from the original picture but from the copy of the original and then continues to make the next copy from the next copy each one is more faded than the previous one till it’s useless to copy anymore. This is a GREAT THREAD. Thanks for posting this. You deserve 5 stars.

That is an excellent illustration. Thank you for your kind comments, I really appreciate them.

 

[Figgin' A]

I cloned some of my most prized varieties 2-3 times and, while I know they all should be genetically identical, they don’t always look the same as the first generation mother trees or even the second generation parent clones. I am sure a number of external factors worked their way in somehow, but in general I noticed some clones exhibiting less vigor, showing significant signs of disease while original trees show none, etc. Human cloning research showed that cloning can result in genetic instability and various deformities. That idea was illustrated in the movie called Multiplicity. I think fig trees arent immune to that.

 

[Fig Gazer]

Logic would point toward ever weaker clones ,but i think in figs this can be reversed some by selecting sion wood that is growing rapidly (robust with long inter nodal space ) vs slower growing wood with tight inter nodal space and often several years of lignification. FROM THE SAME MOTHER TREE .

 

[ktrain]

That is very true that many of these trees grow into great trees and a very valid point. But I guess it’s like in the sense of with humans— humans will make new cells up to the day they die. At some point in there they start making cells that are not as good as before and have effects from aging.

So like with say Black Madeira where it has a reputation of slow growth, could it have anything to do with genetically aged cells? Just the random stuff my brain contemplates in the middle of the night, haha.

Well if you are using the example of people's cells slowing or even degrading due to age, the same thing applies to trees...or anything that has cells for that matter.
I don't see it being an issue when cloning.

 

[bushdoctor82]

Is it true that a clone is the same age as the Mother?

If that is the case and you prune 1 year old growth from a 100 year old tree, your newly rooted cutting will die in a year, assuming a 100 year lifespan. I have no idea - interesting though.

To your initial question, I’d agree with others above in that good stock generally leads to good offspring.

 

[SpiritFarmVa]

So in humans and animals our dna actually ages. So like when they cloned the sheep dolly it was the same genetic age as the original. Plants dna code does not age. Different outcomes from propagation have to do with disease, insects, plants health and so on.
Keeping your mother plant juvenile but heavy pruning helps keep vigorous material. Plus it is important to replace mother plants with strong replacements every so often.
Individual plants do age if not kept juvenile.
Example is in coppicing, a white oak left to grow may live 250 years then age and die. But if coppiced before 15 years and repeatedly coppiced every few years, whatever the rotation is, can live 800-1000 years. And it’s usually disease or physical damage that destroy it.

 

[GoodFriendMike]

There is so much that could factor into it…

Interesting the ones that didn’t have any die back. Will you use them for breeding stock or is that a trait you’re not as concerned about given where you live?

It is not a trait I am concerned with. But if I cross Carica with the Johannis I have. I should get some cold hardy figs.
The Iran seedlings I have seem quite cold hardy.

 

[Sayabo]

I believe that the events that appear over the course of 100 years are different from those that appear over the most recent time.

 

[SpiritFarmVa]

applies to trees...or anything that has cells for that matter

I am it sure this is true. Crocodilians for example do not, they only die from illness or injury. They don’t even know how old the oldest crocodilian is. Koi can live 500 plus years and look at bonsai I think the oldest one is over 500. I’m not disagreeing in principle but there are exceptions to this.

I think plant clones are like age resets in a sense.

 

[Inflorescence]

Is it true that a clone is the same age as the Mother?

If that is the case and you prune 1 year old growth from a 100 year old tree, your newly rooted cutting will die in a year, assuming a 100 year lifespan. I have no idea - interesting though.

To your initial question, I’d agree with others above in that good stock generally leads to good offspring.

That’s what they say about clones because it is supposed to be genetically identical so you are reproducing what already exists, not creating something new. A tree will die in time, something causes it to die without bringing in external factors. And a clone is an exact replication of that existing cell line, not a new birth (so to speak.)

However, it also does not seem to line up because you would think a cutting would just die if a built in age had been reached and that doesn’t happen. So more has to be involved.

It’s like with heirloom vegetables— they are the most inbred plants because they have been duplicated for many, many years and not allowed to cross pollinate. So because of that, they have weakness. It doesn’t mean you can’t successfully grow them and enjoy produce from them. But they may not be as hardy, vigorous, or even as tasty, as a crossbred new variety. Sometimes we don’t realize that difference because we do always buy seeds of the same varieties and don’t use our own crossbred seeds.

Obviously, fruit trees are different from annual vegetable plants and we’re not talking pollination here. But because it is the same tree reproduced over and over, does it create conditions for wipe out because we are not allowing nature to have the diversity it normally would have if humans had not reproduced the same tree varieties over and over. In nature, that tree should be gone or in one place, and other trees should have been made to create diversity.

So if certain varieties are more susceptible to a specific pest, like the black fig fly, do we create conditions for it to thrive because we don’t have the genetic diversity to have trees not susceptible to a given pest to break the pattern? Think of the Irish potato famine type thing.

 

[SpiritFarmVa]

That’s what they say about clones because it is supposed to be genetically identical so you are reproducing what already exists, not creating something new. A tree will die in time, something causes it to die without bringing in external factors. And a clone is an exact replication of that existing cell line, not a new birth (so to speak.)

Here you are equating a plants chronological age with physiological age. So no you aren’t creating something new but it is physiologically juvenile.

As far as disease resistance definitely lower diversity means risk of collapse. But in Ireland they grew one potato basically. There are thousands of figs out there.

 

[Inflorescence]

Here you are equating a plants chronological age with physiological age. So no you aren’t creating something new but it is physiologically juvenile.

As far as disease resistance definitely lower diversity means risk of collapse. But in Ireland they grew one potato basically. There are thousands of figs out there.

There are thousands of fig varieties, but not in one orchard. Many commercial orchards have many of just a few varieties and even the average home grower will just have one or two of the same varieties commonly offered at nurseries. So what is actually grown on large scale is from a small number of varieties. And if those varieties have a weakness for a certain thing, it makes sense why a certain pest could spread so rapidly.

At least, that’s what I think… As stated above, there are many factors involved.