common figs vs common figs

E

epiphyte

Active member
are the most common figs common?  most of you probably understand this question, but for everyone else the question sounds inane.  here's the same question using the correct technical jargon...

are the most common figs parthenocarpic?  if someone doesn't know what "parthenocarpic" means then they have to ask or look it up.  this is a good thing.  

if here on figfanatic we used donations to determine the rules, then i'd donate for a rule that says we should use the word "parthenocarpic" instead of "common".  

exhibit a:

actual youtube conversation with a guy in arizona... 

me: do these ficus racemosa figs have seeds in them?  or do they ripen without being pollinated?
guy: These Cluster Figs do have seeds. They do not need the fig wasp to produce fruit.
me: hmmm, figs can only produce seeds with wasps, or hand pollination.  have you tried sowing the seeds?
guy: Common Figs don't need a fig wasp to produce figs. You can plant the seeds, but like most trees, they are not true to seed. I propagate them from cuttings. I'm growing 26 different varieties of figs and none of them need the fig wasp.
me: "common" figs are parthenocarpic.  this means that they will ripen without pollination.  but without pollination they will not produce any viable seeds.  there are other ficus species besides carica with parthenocarpic varieties, such as ficus elastica, ficus drupacea, ficus erecta and ficus habrophylla.  it would be very helpful to know if ficus racemosa has any parthenocarpic varieties.  if the figs on your racemosa ripen without producing viable seeds, then it's parthenocarpic.

his definition of "common" was immaculate conception.  so we ended up sounding like a bad comedy skit.  

naturally his definition of "common" was incorrect.  and it's entirely possible for someone to have the incorrect definition of "parthenocarpic".  the difference is, when you google for "parthenocarpic" the 1st thing you see is "Parthenocarpy is the process of producing fruit without fertilization, resulting in seedless fruit."  

don't even bother trying to google for "common".  instead you'd have to google for "common fig".  and then you have to find a bit of digging to find the relevant answer.  

i don't know whose idea it was to use the word "common" as a substitute for "parthenocarpic".  but i'm not here to point fingers.  i'm here to say that a big mistake was made, and it behooves us to correct it.  the fastest way to do so is to use donations to determine the rules here on this forum.
 
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You want to make a rule forcing people to type out parthenocarpic when we all understand what the term common means in the fig world?

I ain't no spelling doctor, so I'll just stick with common.
 
I would have to agree with you regarding names etc. I had a similar experience recently with a fig grower calling a Profichi crop a breba and the Mammoni the main crop, no amount of explaining it could change his mind, so there is begins. With the word common, it is often used to describe the figs most often grown, so it can be confusing.
 
ZomVee said:
Is picking up on context that difficult???
Click to expand...
Well, nothing is particularly difficult, for those who choose to think, but the issue is that these days, I think real thinkers are in the minority. Don't get me wrong, I cannot see the word Parthenocarpic taking over from common by the masses either, most people will simply ask the writer what it means, rather than Google it.
 
zomvee, the arizona guy incorrectly believed that "common" meant producing viable seeds without pollination.  is this guy with 26 varieties of parthenocarpic figs outside the fig world?  

let's imagine that enough money is donated for the rule to use the word "parthenocarpic" instead of "common" so that it becomes the #1 rule on this forum.  when new members and visitors check out our rules, it's the 1st rule they see.  it would function as a public service announcement (psa).  in this case, you want to be a scofflaw?  it's not like you'd somehow negate the psa.  but you would be branded as a scofflaw. 

currently i do have a soft spot for rule breakers.  but perhaps this is because the supply of rules is not determined by the demand for rules.  so we end up with a lot of stupid rules, like prohibition.  

but once the supply of rules is determined by the actual demand for them, then perhaps my soft spot for rule breakers will vanish.
 
This is just my idea: These parthenocarpic figs are common to be where the wasp is not, otherwise they would be uncommon.

Parthenocarpic translates to Virgin Fruit. He had that part correct.
 
I do sometimes use the terms of female figs to help people understand the terms for the Caprifig crop's. It really helps those that don't know much about them.
 
I have no problem using the correct terminology in a serious talk about figs, but at the leveI that I engage with the fig community I would probably never use the term parthenocarpic. There's a time for precision and a time for casual understandings.

If a person is dropping parthenocarpic in conversations about figs, then they are way past the entry level. That's like a milestone you get in figs when you have developed a passion for them. Complete newbies shouldn't be using the word, they are not yet initiated.
 
zomvee, if someone is a beginner skier or snowboarder, how do they level up fastest, by hanging out on the bunny slopes forever or by quickly tackling the double black diamonds?  i guess it depends on the person.  

admittedly i doubt that most beginners benefit from being thrown into the deep end.  does having a rule to use the word "parthenocarpic" instead of "common" count as throwing beginners into the deep end?  hard to say.  this is why i would never want to arbitrarily decide the rules.  we should collectively decide the rules, via our donations.  if you think my rule is more harmful than helpful, then you wouldn't donate for it.  

we all want to create an environment where all newbies level up as fast as possible.  the orchidboard has a category for beginner discussion and a category for advanced discussion.  does this help?  well, personally i wouldn't donate much, if anything, for a beginner category.  i would donate for the categories that i wish someone had hit me over the head with when i was a newbie... things like grafting, pollinating and hybridizing.  i want these categories to be at the very top of the page so that they won't be overlooked.  but maybe this wouldn't create the most perfect environment for leveling up.  again, this is why these decisions should be collectively made, and with donations.  

if any newbies prefer a safe space with gentle and gradual education then they should donate to create it and improve its ranking on the forum page.  otherwise it's a waste of time and space to create categories that there's no real demand for.
 
Just my opinion. I believe if we start using all the proper terms many would leave. I know many of the terms but rather not use them. No body likes a "know it all". For people that want to talk about history and studies. And use all those terms. There is a section for that in the Caprifig section. I may even join in. But for those that do not study. The conversation's we have are brutal for them to read.  :)
 
I appreciate that you wish to elevate the language, I like having a vocabulary for precision purposes, but if you go too highfalutin it's kinda off-putting at a casual level. I agree with Mike.


If you would like to have conversations that incorporate exact terminology, that's fine, I can work with that, I just don't ever see me using some of the terminology if I'm talking to a friend about a fig on here.
 
I think if everyone was on the same level of understanding, it would be perfect, but it would never be accepted by the majority. If anyone has tried to read some of the fig papers/studies out there, they will come up against so many words that they have never encountered before and only the 'persistent' reader, will read and reread, Google words etc, to finally understand some of it, but probably not all of it. Many of us, simply skip to the conclusion, or summary, and if that interests us enough, we start from the beginning again. 
So, my thoughts are that Parthenocarpic will never replace Common, for at least 90% of people, and it should not be forced on them, but having said that, the odd use of the word could lead some in a good direction. Something like ...Common (Parthenocarpic), the same as I often do when referring to a Mamme (over wintering) Caprifig etc.
 
I never realized that parthenocarpic and common meant the same thing. Plenty of other terms I don’t know or use correctly. Along the same line is the use of variety vs cultivar. 

The immaculate conception is the belief that Mary was free of original sin at conception, not as Jesus being born of a virgin.
 
I think if everyone was on the same level of understanding, it would be perfect, but it would never be accepted my the majority. If anyone has tried to read some of the fig papers/studies out there, they will come up against so many words that they have never encountered before and only the 'persistent' reader, will read and reread, Google words etc, to finally understand some of it, but probably not all of it. Many of us, simply skip to the conclusion, or summary, and if that interests us enough, we start from the beginning again. 
So, my thoughts are that Parthenocarpic will never replace Common, for at least 90% of people, and it should not be forced on them, but having said that, the odd use of the word could lead some in a good direction. Something like ...Common (Parthenocarpic), the same as I often do when referring to a Mamme (over wintering) Caprifig etc.

Sorry, I only meant to edit the post, not add another, and it doesn't seem possible to delete it.
 
Yes, the most common figs are common because they are ones commonly grown around the world where there is no fig wasp. So you will commonly find common figs in the common home orchard because they are the ones that commonly fruit for most common people. :)
 
Parthenocarpic is indeed the correct terminology.... it certainly doesn't roll off the tongue easily for me.... I really have no idea where or when parthenocarpic figs started being identified as "common". Perhaps, like with other communities... somewhere along the line we developed our own fig dialect? 

Additionally, while donations are appreciated....we don't set any rules.
 
FWIW, I feel the same way when someone refers to "salumi" as "charcuterie". But, sometimes I need to let it slide for the sake of allowing a conversation to continue. Because, I know what they mean.
 
Nora said:
:)  Applause  :)

So much for this experiment. I replied to @"Inflorescence"#181 comment, erased her comment text, and thought my comment would go below hers in order. But oh no, Joe slipped in and got the applause emoji.
Click to expand...

I did the same exact thing when I first commented. :)
 
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